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Curlbash, and Desktop Containers

I was having two independent discussions recently, which started with some traditional Unix person condemning software installing with curlbash (“curl https://… | bash”), or even “curl | sudo bash”.

I do not really think this to be much more dangerous than the installation of random rpm or dpkg packages any more. Especially if those packages are unsigned or the signing key gets installed just before the package.

The threat model really became a different one in the last few years, and the security mechanism have had to change as well. And they have, UIDs becoming much less important.

Desktop containers and Sandboxes have become much more important, and segregation happens now at a much finer granularity (the app level) instead of the user level.

The two discusssions have been around the installation of sysdig (see their article, which focuses on signed code and proxies injecting modifications), and Mastodon (which uses node.js, which features one installation path using “curl -sL | sudo -E bash -“).

Provided that you actually get the file that’s on the remote server (i.e. no proxy exists that modifies stuff), I fail to see the problem. You are not very likely to go through the source and review it.

Also, you are hopefully installing this into a single-purpose virtual machine or container, so there is nothing else inside the image anyway. It does not really matter, which UID this is running as, because there is nothing else inside this universe in the first place.

We have come, in a way, full circle and are back at MS-DOS, where there are no users or permissions visible to the application, because it is utterly alone in the world.

User IDs also do not matter much on personal devices, because these typically have only one user. Being kris (1000) on my Laptop or my Cellphone does not really contain or isolate anything, because there is only me and the only files important are all mine – the files not owned by me come from the operating system image and can be restored at any time. Yes, my files are much more important and harder to replace than the system files.


In MacOS, we have a system that kind of solved the problem of a lone user installing a lot of apps, all of which might to a certain extent be hostile to each other or are trying to pull off things with me and my data.

The threat model is not “multiple users sharing a single device, and keeping their stuff separate”, but “many apps from different sources, and with different levels of trustworthiness, make sure they do not make off with the users data or another apps data unnoticed”. This is very different from Unix-Think and Unix is actually by default not set up at all to handle this.

MacOS attacks the problem by sandboxing Apps from the App Store. Apps run in

⌂ [:~/Library … com.omnigroup.OmniGraffle7.MacAppStore]↥ $ pwd

 ⌂ [:~/Library … com.omnigroup.OmniGraffle7.MacAppStore]↥ $ ls -1 Data/

That is, you still have a single UID per potential user, but apps are confined to a subdirectory and a bunch of system standard locations for stuff.

They can exit that through the file dialogs and other systems means and access arbitrary locations in the system, but the user interaction required here makes sure their activity is being screened and contextualized by a human.

For the user, this is transparent and invisible, and requires no conscious permissive actions. It is implied in the normal I/O dialog workflow. That’s genius, because it hides all the complexity that comes with other systems such as AppArmor, let alone SELinux.


Android uses Unix UIDs, but differently than intended.

In Android, you always have a GUI, because a Command line without a GUI does make no sense on touch devices. Multiple Users are possible, but user separation is not via UID, it is via GUI.

Instead, Android assigns a UID to each app dynamically, and uses Linux permissions and SELinux on top of that to keep apps out of each others data.

The “SD Card” area and permission is actually a limited file share facility between apps, but that was not planned. Instead it has been but a side effect of the fact that MS-DOS filesystems on SD-Cards do not enforce Unix UIDs of different apps. On top of that, Google has been learning clumsily and slowly to leverage this to an advantage, with several false starts.

User Story

Both systems allow users to install apps from all kinds of app makers through a unified channel with limited review, and manage to keep data per-app separated. So it is possible to run apps safely, even if the app is somewhat hostile to other apps or the users data.

The ideas behind that have been picked up, and are being transformed slowly in the unix environment using the desktop-container paradigm. Things like Flatpak are leveraging containers on the desktop to do exactly what the MacOS sandbox does.


  • If everything on your system is running as the same user, then “curl |sudo bash” and “curl | bash” are equivalent in terms of threat.
  • If the user is actually reviewing the source and build, then each apt-get, rpm and any curlbash are actually equivalent, because the amount of review is the same, and far too little.

What is instead necessary is a system that improves security in a way that separates apps, not users, and that makes it possible to recover from the accidental install and execution of a hostile or broken app.

And that’s what desktop containers like flatpak do, or intend to do.

They are obviously neither perfect nor finished. But they are actually addressing a new and different threat model than the one Unix was built for, and that is no longer reflecting the current world.

Published inContainers and KubernetesHackerterrorcybercyber


  1. I agree that the current security model on Linux doesn’t work well anymore if the threat is no more “user against user” but “program against program”.
    When I use .deb- or rpm-Packages, signed by the Developer or maintainer, then this Person has a Reputation from me or someone else (People around Debian or RedHat) and he has checked the source of the filecontent. If this curl-bash-thing install it’s own key as trusted, then I have to trust this developer for everything. If he decides to offer a more recent (in Terms of Version) Version of binutils, my System would accept this new binutils-package – because he made himself trustworthy. _this_ is what I do not like.
    I’d love to have a MacOS- or Android-System. Maybe even Container, but I do not like this Approach which doesn’t work on a Desktop or a development machine, since I do not have “one machine for one app”. and qubes-OS doens’t work on a Server 😉

    • kris kris

      Yes, that is the same problem of scope that TLS certs have. Any root CA can create a cert for any domain, i.e. Honest Achmed can create a cert of a We have CT now, in order to prevent that from happening.

      Similarly, once you have a Honest Achmed key in your list of trusted package signing sources, they can install a new binutils version all containers that contains the Honest Achmed key, even if a legit binutils can never come with a Honest Achmed signature. What is the moral equivalent of CT for packages?

      In any case: That is a problem, but a) it is limited to that container, which is why you should use containers in the first place and b) you are already installing programs signed by Honest Achmed in the first place, so really, does it matter, privileges-wise? That is, what is the difference between running Honest Achmeds node.js bound to port 80 and Honest Achmeds ld in terms of threat model?

  2. One comment about flatpak: its developers seem to want to emphasize that flatpak is not container tech (, although it does rely on cgroups, namespaces, and bind mounts exactly as containers do. They also seem to want to argue ( that what distinguishes them from containers is that they’re unprivileged — which is of course a strange point to make too, since LXC has supported unprivileged containers ever since user namespaces were introduced.

    So yeah, it’s a desktop container, for all intents and purposes. The question remains why they had to roll their own, rather than build on top of LXC.

    • Kris Koehntopp Kris Koehntopp

      The second article ( shows the shortcoming of being GUI agnostic, by the way.

      »In order for the application to be able to write data anywhere we bind mount $HOME/.var/app/$APPID/ into the sandbox, but this is the only persistent writable location.«

      You need to hook the various file dialogs into the isolation mechanism in order to build something smarter.

  3. Jochen

    When the issue of having to import PGP keys into the apt keyring comes up in debian-user, I sometimes argue that people should maybe think twice before doing that. Because they actually give root access of their machine to the key owner . That appears to be surprisingly hard to grasp.

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